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The "Are We Going To Have A Lockout???" thread is outdated, well since we do have a lockout. Time for a new thread.
They gave us hope last month when they met 5 days straight, then things completely fell apart to the point where Bettman wanted to take a two week break.
Anyone optimistic with the progress of the CBA talks this week? Did the players/owners meeting get them over a hurdle that will lead to a deal? Will anyone find hockey tickets in their Christmas stocking?
All I want for Christmas is to see Chris Neil's missing front teeth.
I've thought something may have been happening then when I look over at the SensUnderGround tweets then I think not so much at least for hockey being played.
Homer I really do hate this Lockout, even you would have to agree with that.
Bettman said the NHL PA asked for a defined benefit pension plan.... The players are completely delusional. I can't believe they even get meal allowances. They travel charter, everything is provided for them and they still want more! All they gotta do is eat sleep crap and play hockey for minimum 6 figs.
Doug MacLean and Nick Kypreos got into it, on the radio today, and both of them started to deal in dirty shots at each other (eg/ "you don't respect 4th liners, and those are the guys who can win you a Cup -- that's why you were never successful in Columbus"). Apparently, it was cut out of the podcast of the show they are on, but someone got an audio clip of it. It's about 8 minutes long, and you can find it on this page, down at the bottom. It's about 8 minutes, and gets pretty heated a couple of times.
“As difficult as this all is, having an agreement that doesn’t work and takes us back to an era where the game wasn’t healthy and doesn’t have the magnificence it has now, is something we don’t want to go back to,” Bettman said.
i don't know about you but I think the game looks pretty healthy and magnificent right about now. #clownleague
The worst part about all of this is it totally ruined the 'good guy' look a lot of hockey players had. (At least to me)
You saw most of them portrayed as good, clean-cut Canadian farm kids. I used to think they were at least a cut above the greedy, money mongering players you saw in other sports in North America. Nope.
It's not looking to good
About three years ago, Doug MacLean really went at it with Bob McCown live on Rogers SportsNet. That was about the time that I stopped paying attention to either of them. It was the most embarrassing thing I have ever heard two allegedly professional broadcasters do on the air.
I can only imagine what this edifying episode must have sounded like: Kypreos and his notorious (and, sometimes, needless) combativeness versus MacLean's smugness and general asshat-ness. Ugh.
Aaron Ward sums up very well a point I was trying to make last night about the fingerpointing done by the NHL at where things went wrong (summarized from several tweets, to try and make it easier to read):
"On the CBA negotiations breaking down and questions over Don Fehr joining the meetings Thursday, according to NHLPA source,"The players agreed to the owners request for a players/owners meeting.They didn't agree to negotiate a CBA with seasoned negotiators on the owners' side without their legal team in the room. Players understand that while they are smart,this is not their area of expertise which is why they have hired seasoned negotiators to help represent them."
Does Fehr make Bettman angry? He sure does. Bettman's press conference last night made me laugh out loud repeatedly, mostly because both Betty's words and body language said to me that an angry "little man syndrome" individual was very pissed off at the fact that his usual I-have-all-the-cards-and-will-keep-public-opinion-in-my-favour (that last part is at least in his own mind) went off the rails when he didn't get his "we'll dress up a few crumbs to look like loaves but you have to agree to part with the bakery" scheme to work. Fehr came off as disappointed but Betty was just losing it and seemed very unprofessional.
This is by Ray Ratto a columnist out here in California and he talks about douchebag Jacobs once again: A couple of excerpts
And for this parlous state of affairs, we can actually ask a question: Why do the moderate owners in the league never step up and say, “We want to be the ones in the room”? Why did they do what they always do – sit back and expect the hardliners to get them the best deal possible? Why do they end up being the ones complaining the deal doesn’t work for them when they’ve done so little to craft the deal themselves?
We ask this because baseball learned that lesson 17 years ago, while Fehr was still in charge of the union. They realized that the deal is more important than the personalities, and the deals got done. Then Fehr moved on, replaced himself by a moderate figure in Michael Weiner, and the players and owners are now closer to actually being partners than ever before. There is now labor peace, the game has grown dramatically, and everyone seems quite happy.
And the moderate owners– screwed again, by their own disinterest. They deserve it, too, because there are more of them than any other faction, but they don’t want to bother enough to crash the room and make the deal that can potentially enrich them all. They’d rather let the hardliners deliver them a contract, and then let the wealthiest clubs steamroll their way around it.
So for once it isn’t about the money. And at this point, the only way to save the season is to bring the hardline owners led by Jacobs and Fehr together, lock them in a room – and then negotiate somewhere else.
You do that, you get a deal. You don’t do that, and celebrity curling becomes the new hot TV property.
There's a mention about Russell's sport curling-- and isn't Melnyk one of the moderate do nothing because he'll get fined owners? The wealthy clubs are the ones who steamroll any agreement they always find a way. The owners motto should be "please protect us from ourselves"
ooooooooooooowwwwww!!!!!!!! celebrity curling!
the NHL is the ultimate old boys' club. doesn't look like that's changing anytime soon.
If they can't even agree on how close they are to a deal, how the hell are they supposed to agree on a deal?
Apparently the 50-50 and make whole is pretty much agreed on. The major outstanding issue is the 5 year max on contracts and 5% variance from year to year. Contracts can be up to 7 years if a team resigns one of their own players.
The 5 year maximum contract length is huge for the NHL to get. It's the long term front end loaded deals that is screwing things up.
NHLPA, lets not kid ourselves. The 12 year $7M per ($84M total) is not what players are signing for. They are singing for $10M a year for 8 years and most likely retire from the last 4 years of the deal. And these these $10M signing bonuses with a $2M salary, is just ridiculous.
As for Kypreos, he's an even bigger idiot than I ever though.
on he league minimum salary... "$500,000 is fine if you live in PEI, but not if you live in NY or LA" Give me an effing break. Get down to earth. It's comments like this that will get fans against the players in this whole lockout business. These guys make more in 1 year than most will make in a life time.
I really hate Kypreos.
I on the other hand love Nick Kypreos and Jeremy Jacobs
this is great
That video was great.
It's getting ugly. Both side are now looking at legal action. The NHLPA considering voting for "disclaimer of interest", which would dissolve the union and file a class action lawsuit against the NHL to find the lockout illegal. The NHL on their side filed a class-action complaint seeking a declaration confirming the legality of the lockout, and submitted an unfair labour practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board.
One thing that hasn't been mention in any articles is this. Lets say the NHLPA no longer exists and the players win their class action suit to force the NHL to resume playing. What happens to all the rules and player entitlements defined in the CBA? Things like player fines, suspensions, all the things that players currently don't pay for (travel, logging, equipment, medical, meals when on the road, etc..) Under the CBA, a suspended player's salary goes to the "NHL Players' Emergency Assistance Fund", which would no longer exists without a CBA. So a player could get suspended 20 games and his team would just keep that money. Do the contracts become a per game payments? If a player is injured and can't play, then he is no fulfilling his contract.
This could get ugly for both sides. I have to wonder if both sides know how this would affect them. I hope neither thinks that this would be a lot worse for the other side than for themselves. Either way, it would be total chaos and rules will be made up on the fly.
I find it funny how the NHLPA would allow a vote to dissolve the union, but not put the last offer from the NHL to a vote first.
wouldn't anything legal that you mention above Homer take months if not years in court?
Good point Homer on voting for the offer, I'm now just as unhappy with Donald Fehr as I was when he was the MLBPA head guy because all this sourpuss face dude knows is "NO". He won against baseball but the baseball owners wanted to play as bad as the players did but you do have to wonder if the NHL owners really even like hockey. It's all very frustrating that's for sure.
TB Lightning owner gives staff extended vacation with pay: Vinik gives Lightning employees early holiday gift
Tampa Bay owner Jeff Vinik informed all full-time team employees on Friday they will be getting an extended paid vacation.In an email distributed Friday morning, the Forum will essentially close on Dec. 20 and reopen on Jan. 2 – although the ticket office as well as the team merchandise store will remain open during regular business hours.During the holiday shutdown, all affected employees – approximately 150 people are currently on staff – will continue to receive their regular wages, with the time off not counting toward their allotted vacation benefits. Of course, if a new collective bargaining agreement is reached between the league and the players' union before then, the extended time off will be cut short.In addition to the time off, employees are being given an extra $75 bonus funded by the Lightning Foundation with the hope it will be used to help those in need."We are asking that you use that money to purchase gifts for a holiday charity or perhaps a needy family close to your heart,'' Vinik wrote to employees. "Let's count our collective blessings while helping someone in need.''
In an email distributed Friday morning, the Forum will essentially close on Dec. 20 and reopen on Jan. 2 – although the ticket office as well as the team merchandise store will remain open during regular business hours.
During the holiday shutdown, all affected employees – approximately 150 people are currently on staff – will continue to receive their regular wages, with the time off not counting toward their allotted vacation benefits. Of course, if a new collective bargaining agreement is reached between the league and the players' union before then, the extended time off will be cut short.
In addition to the time off, employees are being given an extra $75 bonus funded by the Lightning Foundation with the hope it will be used to help those in need.
"We are asking that you use that money to purchase gifts for a holiday charity or perhaps a needy family close to your heart,'' Vinik wrote to employees. "Let's count our collective blessings while helping someone in need.''
What a classy move - some of the other teams in the league could learn a thing or two from this organization.
An article in the Sun reports that the NHL will seek all contracts null and void should the NHLPA succeed in dissolving the union.
I'm guessing that their argument would be that all contracts were signed under terms and rules of a CBA that existed between the NHL and the NHLPA. If the NHLPA doesn't exist anymore, then those contracts wouldn't be valid anymore, effectively making all players free agents. I'm not sure which way a judge would rule on this.
For arguments sake, lets say that the NHLPA dissolves and the NHL wins their case that all contracts are void and all players become free agents.
Without a CBA in place, before starting up again, what would stop the NHL to set some league rules and bylaws regarding contracts length, maximums per team and whatever else they want to set? If a player signs a contract with a team, then they effectively agree to what ever rules are in place by the league. It would be a free choice if a player wants to sign a contract with this "new NHL". If they don't like the rules, then they can go sign elsewhere in another league.
The Ovechkins and Kovalchuks would probably stay in Russia, but I'm sure others would crawl back looking for contracts.
It's come to a point of both sides playing chicken with blindfolds on.
NHL lockout doing ‘alarming’ damage to brand
From the article:
The league has a major marketing challenge facing it, whenever it decides to end the current lockout – and the longer it goes on, the worse it will get.
In the case of the NHL and its players, the abiding feelings of the moment are betrayal at one end of the scale and utter lack of interest at the other. If you’re looking for warm and fuzzy, get out a microscope – or, better yet, switch to curling.
“We found damage at levels we have not seen,” Kincaid says. “It’s quite alarming, really.
“If anyone thinks that the lockout can end and everyone will come back to Happy Valley, it ain’t going to happen.”
From a branding point of view, NHL hockey and its multiple corporate sponsors are facing a huge hurdle, Kincaid says. The passionate fans are angry, the neutral fans turned off and bored, the mostly non-fans – the people hockey needs to attract if it hopes to grow – disgusted.
“Think what this means to the sponsors of hockey,” Kincaid says. “For almost one-third of Canadians, you are wasting your time on them. You’ve lost them. They are not going to become even ‘neutral.’”
“It’s about damage control with these people,” he says, “not about action on the ice.”
For an awful lot of the teams that Betty is trying to "help / save" with this lockout, will the damage done be greater than the good they gain? Only time will tell, but with each passing day I have my doubts. Even the Senators will be hurt by this, and the longer it goes on, the longer it will take for them to recover (unless we have a season and they make it past the 1st round of the playoffs).
"will the damage done be greater than the good they gain?"
i absolutely believe it will be.
Here's a breakdown of yesterday's proposal. I think it's pretty good - PA's sticking points are probably on the 50-50 and the buy out, but I don't see why you wouldn't like it.
For the buy out, I can only see Luongo, Redden, Komisarek to get bought out. I don't think the Sens would need any. Maybe Gonchar, but with Cowen hurt for the year, we need him
Don't forget about Gomez, Souray, DiPietro and if you can buy out an injured player, Pronger
I wonder if it's a coincidence that several players have been returning from Europe in the past couple weeks. It wouldn't surprise me if Fehr told players that they would not even consider an offer until January.